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Based on these premises:
1. God is omnipotent.
Being "all powerful" carries with it the idea that there is no power in
creation that is _not_ of God.
2. God has "everything under control".
That is: everything that happens can be traced back to an act of, and therefore
the "will of", and "power of" God.
In other words: Gods will is irresistible.
That is "His will is automatically implemented in creation, and in our
lives. "
Which brings up some traps and errors.
There is the "all is God's will" trap:
"I am sick by the will of God."
Of course. It must be. God has all under control, how could it be any other
way?
"God took little Jimmy home..."
We do not want to think anything else of poor jimmy...
"Granny was the greatest saint of God I have ever known, I do not know
why God allowed her to have cancer."
The only solution is that it was the will of God. Surely, one so righteous
and faithful as Granny could not be at fault. It must have been God, and
no fault involved.
There is the doubt/resignation trap:
"I need this Lord, IF it be according to your will..."
If it does not happen, then we can just assume that it must not have been
His will. This leaves no room for lack of faith on your part. Rather it
assumes the integrity of your belief and attempts to define the nature
and will of God but the fruit of your faith (or doubt!).
"Why should I pray? if it is not His will, He will say no... if it is His
will, it will happen anyway... He knows best, and I just believe He will
do what is best for me..."
The error of the "general faith" theory is evident. It is an attempt to
elevate "hope" to the position of faith. Faith is exact and specific. It
knows what His will is, and believes it to be so in the face of contradictory
circumstances and physical evidence.
"I do not know what you want me to do Lord... I will pray your will be
Done, and wait to see what happens."
Again, the prayer attempts to define the will of God by resulting experience,
rather than by the Word of God. Here the "general faith" theorist attempts
to define the will and therefore the nature of God by the fruit of his
own faith. "I did not receive, therefore it is not God's will for me to
have it." Again, this assumes the belief and the integrity of the man,
rather than the goodness and integrity of God. Oddly, the proponents of
this thought claim that they are honoring the power and glory of God. In
reality, they are declaring the infallibility of their own "belief" and
"reason" at the expense of the declared goodness and mercy of God.
The frightening statement of Jesus looms over the heads of these.
Mark 6:5 (YLT)
and he was not able there any mighty work to do, except on a few infirm
people having put hands he did heal [them];
What you do not believe inhibits the ability of God in your life. His ability
in your life is directly proportion to your specific faith. Hence His will
is not automatically effected in your life by a "general faith".
In all this, we can only join with Jesus:
Mark 6:6 (ASV)
And he marvelled because of their unbelief..."
and pray we do not fail by the same example of unbelief.
Heb 4:11
A Friend Writes:
"...You really think Salvation is my concern? (meaning I ask Jesus in
to my heart kind of salvation by a little prayer) no, I am concerned with
the church drawing near to God instead of the ways of this world that when
persecution comes that they will be ready, that they will not seek the
things the gentile seek that they will not be distracted by there own needs
and will seek only the needs of others, that abiding in Christ will not
be down graded to a bunch of formulas of success..."
I commend you on your frankness and straightforwardness. Most people
lapse into religio-theobabble when addressing these topics, tying to justify
themselves rather than God.
But consider, my friend, the way God intends for us to prepare for oncoming
evil days:
Ephe 6 (YLT)
10 As to the rest, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power
of his might;
11 ***PUT ON THE WHOLE ARMOUR OF GOD, FOR YOUR BEING ABLE TO STAND AGAINST
THE WILES OF THE DEVILl***,
12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the
principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness
of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;
13 because of this ***take ye up the whole armour of God, that YE MAY BE
ABLE TO RESIST IN THE DAY OF EVIL, AND HAVING DONE ALL THINGS, TO STAND***.
14 Stand, therefore, having your loins girt about in TRUTH, and having
put on the breastplate of the RIGHTEOUSNESS,
15 and having the feet shod in the preparation of the GOOD NEWS of the
peace;
16 above all, having taken up the shield of the FAITH, in which ye shall
be able all the fiery darts of the evil one to quench,
17 and the helmet of the SALVATION receive, and the sword of the Spirit,
which is the WORD of God,
There is the conspicuous absence of sickness and poverty in this list,
rather: truth, righteousness, the GOOD news, FAITH, SALVATION, and the
WORD are our weapons against the devil in the evil day.
>>>> ...you assume that the devil does put sickness on people, but I
think it is sin.<<<<
Again, thanks for your frankness, but I think it is both. The devil is
come to kill, steal, and destroy(John 10:10). And he who sows sin in the
flesh will reap corruption in the flesh (Gal 6:7-8). I was going to get
around to this in a post about what the real cause of sickness is in our
lives. We cannot forget that in many (most) cases, it has nothing to do
with sin, or the devil. It is simply an act of nature. Birth defects, disease,
a broken limb due to gravity, etc... These things are a fact of life, and
their causes are self evident. But God seeks to releave us of these also.
>>>>Mainly most of the time it is abuse to our selves that cause our
problems. <<<
I agree completely... many of our problems are our own fault. What I am
concerned about, is the effort by some to _accuse God_ of these things.
They seek to justify themselves. Instead of admitting their own part in
sickness, whether it be abuse of their body, sin, or downright unbelief...
they get "spiritual"... and declare their sickness to be "God's will" in
their lives. Oddly, they then proceed straight to the doctors office to
get out of "God's will". They say God wants them sick, yet they will take
medicine to releave the symptoms of "God's will". If they really believe
it is the will of God, they should drink the cup to the dregs, and be as
sick as possible. They site the "thy will be done" prayer of Jesus in the
garden (after which Jesus went forth to suffer and die according to the
will and plan of God). They pray the same prayer, but do not attempt to
go forth (as He did) to fulfill the plan of God, and in fact do everything
in their power to thwart His "will"! Their arguement sounds very "religious"
and "spiritual" on the surface... but once you think it out, it makes no
sense, spiritual or otherwise.
>>>You assume that we believe that God places sickness and poverty on
us but that is because you have been taught that we believe this, but as
I show above it is not so, we by our own neglect or abuse cause our own
sickness and God uses the opportunity, He alows us to make our own choices,
either to serve Him in every thing or not to live healthy lives or not.
He does not stop us unless we let him (some time like in the situation
with Jonah He decides differently.)<<
I agree with this concept. God can certainly take a bad situation and turn
it to His and our good. I hope that you will agree that His highest and
best is that we are faithful, obediant, and responsible to start with.
In this, we will not come into these problems (tho remember that in many
cases, it is not the sufferers fault, it is a problem created by the devil,
or by nature). If we fall in a ditch, He will help us out. And it is best
if we avoid the ditch to start with. But it is error to say that He pushed
us in!
>>>I don't think necessary that God purposely makes people sick or die
(although He certainly has done so as evidenced in the Bible), He may **allow**
these things to happen to line up with His will in the end anyway. Like
with Job, he allowed Satan to afflict him, but it was Satan's doing, not
God's. And that was God's way to testing Job; Job didn't denounce God like
Satan thought he would. But he did fail in that he even questioned God
why it was happening. God reminded him that He is in charge of everything
and all we have to do (or can do) is trust Him, through good or bad.<<<
The writer of Hebrews exhorts us to "hold fast to the profession of our
faith".
I am not sure that "...He is in charge of everything and
all we have to do (or can do) is trust Him, through good or bad..."
is even a profession of faith. It is more (as I pointed out above) like
a devotional resignation to the inevitable: whatever comes must be of God,
and as long as we don't bad mouth or question, then that is faith.
It seems like so many believers got through with the plan of salvation
and just stopped there. Nothing more.
Whatever happened to "fight the good fight of faith"? If all this were
true, then Paul should have written "surrender to the inevitable suffering
of doubt".
If this is faith, then what is doubt?
This is my arguement in a nutshell.
What does this kind of psudo-faith give you that you would not have without
it? All the things "believed" would still be true, still occur, and still
continue as if you did not believe anything at all. How does one benefit
from a "general faith" gospel that believes everything in principle, but
nothing specifically? How is such a believer different from a non-believer.
I have heard many criticize those in the faith movement, saying they are
being "presumptious" rather than having faith. Yet I see those who prescribe
to the "general faith" on the opposite end of the spectrum: in that they
will live the same un-abundant life the unregenerate lives. "Resignation"
being a substitute for faith. "Assumption" rather than "presumption".
One does not need the Word or Holy Spirit to grow in resignation faith,
one only needs to give up!
That God is not responsible for the sicknesses of mankind is a fundamental
of faith, and one that seeks to justify and glorify God rather than accuse,
condemn, and call in question His doings.
God spoke to Job saying:
Job 40:8 (ASV)
Wilt thou even annul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest
be justified?
Before we accuse God of evil things that may occur in our lifes, we should
admit our own error and take the blame ourselves. He loves us and has never
hurt us, nor will He ever. This, in my mind, is true faith.
>>>I would like to ask a question: where does contentment come into
place?<<<
I think you are assuming that the reason I speak of healing and prosperity
is because I am not content. I and my family are fairly prosperous now,
and have been blessed with good health. So you see, I do not speak of these
things out of discontent, rather because I see so much suffering around
us. It is my heart desire to see people healed and prosperous. I _have_
been poor, and know how devestating it is to you and your children.
>>>I do believe strongly in healing, but I have a hard time with one
who teaches it as if it where the pinacle of the faith,<<<
When I first came into the Pentacostal Church, everyone used to ask me
why we always spoke of tongues. They would bring up the subject, and then
wonder why we spoke about it.
I hope you do not think that I teach healing as the single most important
thing in the doctrine of Christ. It just always seems to come up, and the
debate takes off. Also, I think that because it is so very easy to illustrate
the principles of faith by using healing as an example, we tend to speak
of it often. But to be fair to myself, I think that I personally use prayer
just as often if not more than healing to show how faith works. Also, to
a person who is deathly ill, healing is a _very_ important topic. Just
as food would be to a starving man. I think Jesus considered healing a
very important subject, since He never failed to heal everywhere He went.
>>> I have seen many healed by God through me and have been healed by
God, but I always have seen Christians without contentment mainly in the
Faith movement no matter how healthy and weathy.<<<<
I am not sure if what you are seeing is discontent my brother. We are very
excited about what God has done for us through Christ Jesus, and are trying
to hold fast to the profession of our faith. I can see how you might see
our actions as discontent.
>>>You teach us to seek the gifts but I believe it is more important
to seek the Giver.<<<
I agree. How long does it take to find Him? A week? A year? A lifetime?
I found Jesus 25 years ago, and have sought to walk with Him. What do you
think I am not doing that I should be doing?
>>I know that you will agree on my second point but, you are backwards
in your teaching, maybe because your "faith" is a power or force or maybe
because your teachers drownd you in these teachings, in any case You should
teach others to seek God, if health and wealth come from it then so be
it.<<<
Well, I do teach folks to seek God when I get the chance. But again, this
is not a life long journey. You can find Him in a day, and learn His ways
and how to walk in the Spirit in a fairly short time. It is all in proportion
to your dedication to the Word and the Spirit. As I said, I have been walking
with Him for 25 years. When do we get beyond milk and on to the meat? And
even babes are able to appropriate the good things of God either by their
own faith, or by the faith and gifts of others. Many of the healings and
miracles of the gospels and Acts were performed fairly early in the lives
of the believers, if not when they first heard the gospel.
>>>Christans need the foundation to stay content in Christ before anything,
they do not need to be taught "confess your healing and you will recieve"<<<
But Jesus taught this very way in Mark 11-23-24.
>>>the need to be taught " rely on Christ the giver of life or draw
near to God and He will draw near to you".<<<
You are quite right, if they are not near Him, they should draw near Him
immediately. I would like someone to tell me exactly how to do this (from
a scriptural point of view). I think you will find that the way this is
done is by faith, and faith comes by the word of God. You are never going
to draw near to Him or rely on Him without His word. To rely on Him means
to rely on His word. To draw nigh to Him means to draw nigh by doing the
things revealed in His word.
>>>I know this is not your only subject (health and wealth) but it is
the subject that the flesh loves,<<<
Well, I am no fool, nor am I a liar. Given the choice between sickness
and health, I will take health. Between poverty and prosperity, I will
take prosperity. For myself and for my children. I do not think that thinking
this way is "of the flesh". It is the reality of the world that God put
us in. As I said above, I am not preoccupied with it, but I thank God for
it, and rejoice in His provision. I do think that seeking to achieve some
sort of spiritual or religious higher ground by denying yourself or your
family these things is dangerous. My righteousness and salvation was purchased
for me by the blood of Jesus, and no works or denial of the normal needs
of the flesh are going to increase my righteousness one inch.
>>>the stuff I mentioned above might not give you the Copland spring
in your step but it will give you the love of God, even for the general
faith people as you call them. >>
I received the love of God by receiving the divine nature of God. I could
not do it before I was born again. I was an evil tree and could not put
forth good fruit. Now I am a good tree by faith in the operation of God
when He raised Jesus from the dead. It is no longer I that loves, it is
Christ that loves in me. In Him I live, move, and exist. I am nothing without
Him. I am not sure exactly what Copeland teaches, but I am confident that
this is very close to it.
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